E23 We Followed the Rules… and It Made Us Worse!

This episode is a real story about what actually happens when you grow up with strict rules around dating, sex, and “doing the right thing.”

We were the good kids. Door open. Following the rules. Respectful.

At least… that’s what everyone thought.

What nobody tells you is that rules don’t stop behavior. They just change how it happens. And sometimes, they make it more intense, more secretive, and more wired into your brain than it would’ve been otherwise.

In this episode, we break down:

How “open door policies” really worked (or didn’t)
Why environment changes behavior more than rules
How secrecy and fear of getting caught became part of the excitement
The long-term impact that followed us into adulthood
What parents and couples need to understand about human nature

This isn’t about blaming parents. It’s about understanding how behavior is shaped, often in ways no one intended.

If you’ve ever wondered why “good kids” don’t always turn out the way people expect, this will probably hit closer to home than you think.

⭐ About Undressed Conversations

We’re Mark and Tonya, high school sweethearts married for 30 years. After decades of trying to fit into roles that weren't ours, we finally dropped the masks and started telling the truth about marriage, intimacy, shame, healing, and what it actually takes to stay connected for life. Our goal is simple, to help couples build relationships that feel alive again.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Quick heads up before we jump in. If you're listening to this on the podcast, this is one of those episodes you might want to watch on YouTube too.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Yeah, because we're actually showing photos, old memories, and some real visual proof of what we're talking about today. And it's different when you can see it.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

So if you want the full experience, head over to YouTube, Undress Conversations, and watch this episode there. Now, this is something we didn't know was possible, but if you go to buzzsprout.com forward slash 2557580.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

There is also a link on our Facebook page.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

You can actually leave us fan mail. And today?

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Today we actually received one.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

But here is that message. We appreciate this. The cool thing about being a small podcast is we do have bandwidth, so please reach out. It definitely energizes the show. And if you have questions or suggestions, that fuels us completely. A big shout out to David. Thank you for leaving this. You made our day.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Without further ado, here's the fan mail.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Hey, just found your guys' podcast, not sure how I did, but uh just listened to the most recent episode married for over 30 years, and um, I really like the way both of you guys talk the honesty, the way he talks, just similar to uh normal people and uh such a refreshing, honest view from a real perspective and not some clinical or psychological perspective. So, anyways, just wanted to give you guys feedback that I'm glad I found it, and it really think you guys are doing a great job. Thanks, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

How following the rules made us the freaks that we are today.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

True story. We thought we were the good kids, like genuinely believed we were following the rules, doing everything right. The door was open, the parents are happy, nothing to see here. Meanwhile, we're completely naked under a blanket, like we just discovered some kind of teenage invisibility cloak.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, like not even sneaky. We were just confidently delusional. The door's wide open, your parents are walking by thinking, look at these respectful good kids. And I'm sitting there thinking, if this blanket moves even a half an inch, we're effed until we're 30.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

And the crazy part is we actually felt like we were behaving, like somehow the setup made it okay. The door was open, the blanket covered us, all of it combined to create this weird sense that we were still the good kids.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah, and looking back, it's kind of wild because it wasn't that we were breaking the rules, it's that we found a version of the rules that worked for us. Like the system looked strict, but in reality it had these little gaps that gave way to more freedom than anybody actually realized.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

And what's funny is depending on where we were, everything changed. Same relationship, same feelings, but totally different behavior just based on how visible we felt.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Which is what makes this whole thing interesting, because it's not just about what we did, it's about how the environment shaped us without us really realizing it. Here's what nobody tells you about rules like that. They don't actually stop anything, they just change how it happens. We didn't become less curious or less sexual, we just became really good at operating inside the lines in a way that still gave us exactly what we wanted.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Exactly. We weren't trying to rebel, we were trying to stay within the rules, but still have the freedom. And that's where it gets weird because the things that were supposed to make it safer actually created this false sense of security.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, like at my house, the open door was supposed to mean visibility and control. But because of how everything was set up, it actually gave us more confidence to push things further.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

And then at my house, where everything was more exposed and there wasn't that illusion, we were way more careful. Same two people, completely different behavior, just based on how seen we felt.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

And the part we didn't understand at this time is that all of that, the tension, almost getting caught, the feeling of being seen but not seen, it was actually wiring something deeper within us.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Which is the crazy part.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

This is the story of how two people followed all the rules and became the freaks that we are today, and how despite following all the rules, we still got away with murder.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

We did, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

And one set of parents, it's almost like the rich dad, poor dad.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

You know, I had two different parents. We had your parents that we had to live under their rules, and we had my parents that I had to live under their rules. And despite what you would think would be similar outcomes, one set of parents was much more involved and tried to be much more involved, and the other set of parents said something completely different.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

So let's talk about your house, the safe house. Stage one, the safe house.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

My house. Because at my house, we had a different set of rules than we had at your house. Yeah, and my house.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Your house, because we had the luxury of being number one downstairs, away from the rest of the family.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

We did. So that was a luxury. Both my brother and I had downstairs rooms when everybody else was upstairs. So we had that little bit of privacy, but also downstairs was the family room where everybody congregated to watch TV and uh stuff like that. So right outside my bedroom was the family room. We had a ton of rules we had to follow. One of the biggest things they could ever be worried about is two kids getting together and actually having some sort of you know intimate tangling.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Those teenage hormones getting out of control.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Oh, they were way out of control. They were so one of the rules that they enforced on us is that we had to have an open door. I could be in there with you, but it was an open door. Now, I will draw a very easy, quick sketch of how my room was laid out, and you can see that even though we had an open door, we had a lot of privacy. My brother didn't have that same luxury because you went down, you got down off the stairs, and then it had like a direct view right into his room into his bed. Mine, I was so much luckier.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Oh, yeah. Um it was kind of like an L-shape-ish, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yeah, because you went in and right inside the door was a closet, and so that blocked some view, and then you had to turn, but because of the way the walls were laid out, you could really only had a good view into the TV because the headboard was back on the same wall as the door, and you just really couldn't see anything past like mid-bed.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

You had to walk in the doorway to actually see the bed.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

And so, you know, there were there were secrets. I mean, yeah, we uh we could hear footsteps coming down the oh yeah, and the stairs were noisy.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

You could hear creaking and clanking coming down the stairs.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Yeah, it was it was a little bit more. Even if you tried to be quiet, it was like a herd of elephants.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

It was not hard to well, didn't you have a door that went downstairs? Okay, so you'd hear the door open too, and then the people coming down the stairs.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, so they would anybody coming down, we would be a little bit more cautious. But we were usually there from I don't know, what, eight?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, I'd say about eight to ten.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

10, 10, 30, something like that. So a lot of the kids were, you know, and I was raised with younger kids in the house. So at this time, they were in bed. You know, I'm 16, my sister's, you know, quite a bit younger. You know, there's a big age gap between my sister and I, so and my you know, my older brother and I are substantially older than our younger siblings. 10 years to the baby, yeah, to the baby between me and the baby.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

So they were they were substantially younger, so we had different bed times and stuff. My parents' room was right above us. You know, so a lot of times they'd retire early or something and not be down there watching TV, and it did, it did give a lot of opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Oh, but I remember when she would sit downstairs when we were in there.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

She would be out down there watching TV.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Probably like Yeah, I think I think my mom would definitely, but see, that didn't stop us either.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Again, again, it didn't stop us at all.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Have you ever have you ever been in one of those intimate moments and somebody says you can't make a noise, you can't make a sound?

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

I have I wonder where these I wonder where these ideas came from later in life.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Seems like we've circled back to that.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, we have this hidden blind spot. Literally, from the headboard to about mid-bed was a hundred percent of obscured by the way the room was laid out. And so I had, you know, they gave us the confidence to push the limits.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Not to mention, I mean, we would absolutely sit outside and just mac hard. I would I would be wearing half of your makeup by the time you dropped me off some night.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

That's where you gave me the lip hickey. Do you remember the lip hickey?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

I I do remember the litpic.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

There's a picture of the lip hickey. I wonder if I could find it.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Well, if you can, you can give it to me and I'll put it in here.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, right there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

So the next day, like, I didn't even see it that night because it was probably dark. We'd probably make it out in your truck, and I must have sucked just a little too hard. Things got really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

No, it was downstairs. It was downstairs on the couch.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yes, I remember.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

That that little rainbow afghan, huh? Do you remember that too?

SPEAKER_02 8:29

I do remember that you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

We had all these rules, but at my house we learned how to get around them because the ultimate reality was is that this didn't stop anything. Yeah. Now, there was other things going on behind the scenes, and in the after hours, we're gonna talk a little bit more about some of the other things as far as parental interventions that happened. We just feel like that's a little bit sensitive. We'll put it over there if you're interested. If you're not interested, no big deal. But we always welcome you to check that out at undressconversation.com. And I think it's gonna be vault.undressconversation.com. But if you go to our website, you'll be able to see that. As always, we remind you that you can email us if you have stories, questions, comments at stories at undressedconversation.com. So that's a great place to do all that stuff.

unknown 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

And we will definitely talk about some of the parental intervention that my mom tried to pull and the crazy things. There's some there's some good stories. There's some good stories. Oh my gosh, the stuff. The stuff as parents will do.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Anyhow.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

The the the ends that they will go through to try and keep their their kids.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

It worked really well.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

It did not, it didn't work at all.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

That's a lie. That's a lie. It did not.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

So we had the door, the door was open, and then there were some other things. Stage two.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

The blanket. Oh, we live at the blanket. And so the I was cold a lot. I was so cold.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yes. We live luckily for us, we do live in a northern uh northern state, so it's oftentimes chilly. Uh, had the waterbed, that was a lot of fun. Um, so and sometimes I'd cool that down. The summertimes I think I knocked it down a couple degrees, the winter time I'd bring it up. But you know, for some reason, you were just always really chilly. And so cold. We would get under the blankets. Now at my house, nobody ever said anything about that.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

I don't remember a blanket rule.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

I never, never had a blanket rule.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

I remember a blanket party, but not a blanket party.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

I don't remember anybody, yeah. And so what we would do to help alleviate people's concern is we would leave the blankets down, you know, like if they were up, we would leave them across our stomachs or something. So we'd so that you know somebody's particular nugs were out and exposed, and we could tell that you nothing was happening there. And it would look very completely innocent, just laying next to each other.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Fully clothed.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Fully clothed, yes, fully clothed.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

From the waist tap.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

From the waist up. You know, uh, and so the whole thing was as that starts setting in our mind is this, oh, we're safe here, you know, we're we're getting away with all this stuff. Like we felt like little people. Nobody knows anything. Nobody knows anything. Yeah, you know, there was times I was concerned because of the activities we were doing that uh can well. I'm just gonna say that there's a song out there called It Smells Like Sex and Candy. Yeah. And we were a little bit worried about that.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

This was actually that song came out maybe four years later. Right. Three or four years later. But we were worried about that. My dad, you know, being blind and having a really good sense of smell. We were we were there was times I was like, he's gotta know something's up. Like he's not seeing anything, but he's gonna be a candle, burn a candle, burn a candle, open a chew can, something. At that time, we did have a spray though.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Do you remember? We had the glade. No, it was glade.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, we didn't have Febreze.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Uh no, Febreze was not invented yet. We had a lot of things. We did, that's why we had that. Remember?

SPEAKER_01 11:52

We're like, oh, we just like it smelling really fresh in here.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

I think we did light a candle in your room occasionally, though.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

So, you know, we were we were doing all the things, and you know, they thought if it was invisible and they didn't see it, uh it then it doesn't count. Right. So they didn't ever see anything because we're good enough at hiding all that stuff. And for us, I think that tension just increased the intensity.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

It just made it more exciting, and I mean, maybe not at the time, but in hindsight, I can totally see it.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Like, again, we felt like we were getting away with something and it was just our little secret. It was just another one of those bonding moments for us, like, no, this is our little secret. Like, the only ones that know is it's us. We're getting away with so much here. And maybe they knew, maybe they suspected, I'm sure they did, because again, we'll talk about some of the things that went on.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

That was setting things up for the future now, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 12:46

It was, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

In ways that we didn't even realize.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

We had no clue how it was gonna come full circle.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

And so that was basically the experience at my house.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

And that brings us to stage three, Tanya's house, mine.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Because there was different rules.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Yeah. So at my house, we had a garage that they was attached to the house, but they converted it into our rec room. So they put a TV and a couch out there, and there was a door between the kitchen and that that they shut. And we shut it, they shut it all the time, mainly because they didn't want to hear our TV. So we did have privacy, but it was not like your room.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

No, so they usually stayed inside the house, you know. They called the the old garage that was covered the rec room, like you said. And so they stayed inside the house and watched TV in there, and we they literally the only thing we could count on is your dad coming out for popcorn or cookies or something. And once he did that, you know you were never gonna see him again.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

They're creatures of habits, like they would do everything the same every night.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

When they went to bed at 10 o'clock, they would come out and lock the door and say goodnight, and we wouldn't see them again. They didn't come out, they didn't check on us, they didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

And the door had a window in it, so you could actually see out there. But I you know, I don't even think they ever checked on us, to be honest. They they gave us privacy. So, in a way, we had more exposure, but I almost feel like we had more freedom. Ish.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

So we never and the other thing is is that they never said we couldn't go back to your room.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

No, they had we just didn't want to.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

We just didn't.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Why would we do that?

SPEAKER_01 14:21

We were like, why would we that was closer to the room?

SPEAKER_02 14:23

My room is right next to their room. Like, no.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Well, mine was right below my parents.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

So we're gonna stay on the rec room.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Again, the rec room gave us the freedom, and I think they gave us that space because they knew. I really feel like your parents knew what it was like to be 16. They understood that, and they were like, you know what? They're gonna she's she's either got it or she doesn't. She's either gonna have this figured out or she doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Well, and I wanna say I was definitely more more lax at my house. I was more more what's the word I'm looking for? Comfortable. I was I was more comfortable at my house. I didn't feel like there was a watchful eye over us, like at your house.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

I think our behavior just became cautious out of nature. Like we were out in the open mainly because of your house. To be honest, we might not have even had to worry at her house at all. No, I don't think we did. You know, had we not had all the experiences at my house, but we we didn't know, and so we just became very cautious. And I think the other thing I'm gonna say too, though, is there was a level of respect there. Yeah, that's the other thing I think we're leaving out of this entire conversation is is that your parents treated us with respect.

SPEAKER_04 15:34

They did.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

And they knew that we were coming into our own age, and they realized that we were committed to each other, that we weren't flaky. Yeah, and they're like, these kids, if they like each other, you couldn't, you know, wild horses couldn't keep them away. We re we understand that. Why do we have so many books, you know, Romy and Juliet, about people trying to stop that?

SPEAKER_04 15:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

It's one of the things we said to ourselves, we're not gonna try and intervene in our kids' love. We just want to try and help them find happiness like we have. But my parents didn't respect us enough to give us any distance, and yours did. And because your parents respected us, I feel like we respected them more and we were really cautious. Whereas if my parents would have caught us, I'd been like, what the fuck are you gonna do about it?

SPEAKER_02 16:12

It didn't stop us.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

If your parents would have caught us, I'd have been like, I would have been, I would have freaking felt destroyed. My parents, fuck off.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

The thing is, is it didn't stop us at all. We still fooled around at my parents' house.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

I didn't respect the rules, I didn't agree with them, and I didn't respect them just because they didn't understand the need to connect physically at that age, and they did, I guarantee you they did. Everybody has those urges and those feelings. It's just they like to pretend that yeah, they like to pretend they don't exist.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah, or it's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

You know, so here again, we're the same couple and we're doing completely different behavior because of the way we were treated. And I really, I really think a lot of that comes down to respect. Your parents showed us respect and respected our space, our relationship, and said, you know what, this is none of our business.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

And mine did not.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

No.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Stage four, the wiring.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Because all these things were sending a message to us. We were wiring our nervous system about things we didn't even understand. Things that we wouldn't understand until here recently.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

We had no idea how it all came together.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

If my parents were to see this and they would I don't know that they would understand how these things created these patterns, but what they did is they made they made uh secrecy and the fear of getting caught. They made those arousal triggers.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Yes. And risk.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

You know, they made that risk an arousal trigger. Yeah. And it's like, oh my gosh. And so it's not surprising that again on our honeymoon that we're foraying into public exhibitionism.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Well, that's just it. And you know, your brain links the excitement that makes it really exciting with the danger. But the danger and the it builds the excitement. And that's where you get that dopamine hit.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Did they intend to do this? No, they didn't intend. They were actually doing it because they were trying to keep us safe. They were trying to protect us. But sometimes we as parents try to protect, and instead they actually ingrain. They ingrain patterns, it's the law of unintended consequences. Yeah. They're trying to keep us safe, and what they did was create people that actually like to, you know, foray into maybe getting caught. Now we we weren't wanting to get caught. I want to be very clear.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

No, we weren't doing it to get caught.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

But the fear of that risk was not enough to stop us. It was enough to really amp up. Well, it was really it, I mean, it just juiced an already an already hot situation.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Well, and then like you were saying, it's it's not intentional. It's it's a very real like man. It it you just don't really mean for it to happen, but it does.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah. Hiding, being caught.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

It just builds, it builds that part of your nervous system that you don't even realize is there.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

And then society's doing some of that too. It wasn't just my parents. It's uh you heard the stories of people doing things in theaters and oh yeah, you know, I mean, we heard the stories of this what was that our junior prom or something where people went behind the curtain?

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Well, they were getting it on behind the curtain at prom. Yeah, yeah, getting bent over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, we heard all those stories, and I mean, there again. I was wishing it was me, but dude, that was not happening at that point in time. It wasn't me. It was that that was dude, scared little Mark. Not only what number one, couldn't even freaking think of doing that with you, but number two, definitely not in public. I am not the person I was.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

No, no. Well, and it all of those behaviors that we had, it really explains our attraction to pushing the edge, pushing the boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Oh, and we've done that ever since. You know, it's not a mistake that at 20 years old we were looking at things like hedonism to go on, you know, to go on a nudist resort vacation. We just have always been fueled by that.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yeah, and the f the getting caught.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah, we're just like and and being seen was never a problem.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

No.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

We we didn't we didn't even realize that until the first time we did step onto the beach at Heat Nos. You know, just how much we were ready for that moment.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

You know, we wanted to live on the edge, we wanted to spice things up. We started early, you know, and and it died for about 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Well, that's because, you know, life 30s, kids, jobs, work, stress, weight gain, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

And that leads us into stage five, the truth. Rules didn't stop our behavior.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

No.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Were they ever going to stop our behavior?

SPEAKER_02 20:47

No, the rules were not enforced at all. The rules were not followed, even though they thought it was followed. But we did not bother us.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Okay, so we've told the story of the gravel pit, but I think let's go into the detail just a little bit more because I think that's a really good time to talk about that as well. Because that fits very nicely into our story, and I think it's an integral part. So let's talk about the first. Actually, I want to talk about the first couple scenarios that we were in when we finally decided to consummate our relationship. The first one we talked about was in the tent.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Camping with a couple other couples. We were sharing a tent and a two-room tent. A two-room tent. So we had privacy, but it's a freaking tent.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

It's a tent.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

It's a tent. You know, and so everybody knows what we're doing because I had to go borrow a condom to do it for the first time because I wasn't ready, and then we got there and we're like, Yeah, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

And so luckily they they borrowed us a some good friends to borrow us a condom. But that again was one of those things where everybody knew what was going on.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

I mean, there was this knowledge that sex was happening right next to them. We're naked, we're P I V.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

You know, all the stuff for the very first time and again, I think that was a turn on to us.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

I think it was too.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I mean it's that whole And it wasn't different because we were doing that stuff, almost that stuff, with you know, basically inside of my room with people just outside.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

I do remember the other people on the other side of the tent. The the female person did come to me the next morning and she's like, Well, how was it? And I'm like, It was great.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Oh, three and a half seconds of it.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Yeah. So everybody knew, like, everybody knew what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

No, it was we went and how yeah, we had to go around and ask like three different people for a condom that night.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah, we're like, it's because it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

But there again, that's it's all that it's that environment, it's that whole thing, and I can't believe we were thinking that we couldn't go through with like like doing that type of thing later on in life. Now, the second story I'm thinking of is one of the first times, like we this is after we had begun having sex, maybe the fall. So we started maybe July, and this is one of the first encounters that we had after that. We decided that we're gonna get all tore up from the floor up, so we have somebody buy us alcohol, we're not old enough, we're seniors, I guess, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah, we're seniors.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Seniors, maybe September or something.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

I think it was either it was before it was too cold. So it was probably September, October. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

You know, so we get some mad dog and we don't really have a good place, so we're just gonna go down to the gravel pit that was owned by uh one of your friend's families and had a gravel pit. And so we just decided that we're gonna go sneak in down there because nobody goes there after dark, you know, it's just it's all closed up, it's all fenced, it's basically private property hidden from everything. So we're gonna go hang out at the gravel pit. Just get drunk for the evening. And so we did. We won bottle, there's four of us, like mad dog 2020. I don't know what it was just kind of take a chug and pass it around, and it was but then after that we started getting a little bit lit. And you know, the thing is is that once you start getting a little bit tipsy, you get a little frisky. Frisky happens, frisky's for real. And we got a little frisky, and we I don't remember how we got there if we were we walked because we we stayed at her house. Okay, yeah, yeah. So we just and we had nowhere to to you know engage in exercise.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Because we stayed in the camper, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

And so we just right there. I don't know where the other people that were with us were, have no idea. We were just like out there like a bunch of freaking wild animals in the gravel.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

And we didn't care if there was gravel on our backs, even a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

No, then we got done, we went back and we're all bragging. Like those are those are the days. Those are the days it was fun, dude. If only people bragged about that more, like hey, guess what?

SPEAKER_04 24:44

Guess what we did.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Did you have any idea of a like we oh my gosh, we haven't had it, and then all of a sudden last night after three years. I mean, but you know, that embrace, I just there should be more excitement and you should be cheering your team on, like your guys, your girls. Like, yeah, I mean the attaboys again.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

You get it.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Man, I can't believe I'm so happy for you. You know, it was a great yeah, yeah. It's uh I don't know why we share every other happy thing and great thing that happens in our life, and then this is something taboo, not something we consider taboo at all. No, no, you know, so we're out there and they were, I think they were around like again. We shared the we shared the experience and they were around somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

I don't know where. Maybe engaging in activities.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Maybe they had their I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

But there again, it was that we were in public, there was other people around.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Didn't stop us.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Didn't stop us, didn't you didn't care if anybody walked up, saw, like neither one of us was we're like, nope, don't give a shit.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

And that's at seven eighteen, seventeen, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Seventeen, eighteen, yeah. And that just and it's off to the races from there, and all of a sudden, now what do you like? You like that they're all getting caught. You like to be an exhibitionist, you don't mind if people look at you.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Well, and you have to realize too that we had two years of playing or a year and a half of playing in your bedroom. You know, that was building up to that.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Oh, we led up to that. And and when we when we took that jump, you know, into into engaging in sex when we were ready, it was it was amazing. I mean, we just didn't stop. We never did. We have never, ever, ever since then stopped. And the only thing that really stopped was all this this excitement. Yeah. You know, yeah. All these fantasies and these kinks and fetishes that we had developed just kind of get died.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

You know, but that's how they were created.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

But the truth is, is those were all created by the behaviors and uh molding and modeling and everything that our parents taught us. But I won't say that we wouldn't have ended up there anyhow. They just started it earlier than maybe they anticipated. We could have we absolutely could have ended up in the same spot. It's not their fault. I just think that they were mo molding things that they didn't realize.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

The interesting thing is that we didn't even realize this until our 40s. Actually, until like the last year. Where everything kind of you see, everything the you see the whole map develop. Everything kind of comes full circle, and you're like, oh all the neurological patterns. Like, I understand now where it comes from. You know, everything that happens in our youth molds us to the people we are today. And we didn't realize that. We didn't realize that it molded that much into our sexuality, into our behavior patterns, into our, you know, neurological thought. I mean, everything. It's pretty cool to see and think back of like, oh, hmm. The blanket at your room is the birthplace of a lot of our a lot of who we are sexually. It's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

I'm surprised. I I can only imagine what would have happened if we would have ever done anything with any other people, if they would have been in the same room type situations. Like I can only imagine because those developed later on on their own.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Um, but you know, and maybe they did because they were we were right next door to people engaged in the same activity. Maybe we didn't see it, but guarantee we heard it.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

We knew about it. We knew what was up.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah. I think what's funny is if you would have asked us back then, we would have said that we were doing everything right. Like we would genuinely believe that we were the good kids in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Oh, 100%. We would have been like, hey, the door's open. We followed all the rules. Meanwhile, we're just following them in the most creative, flexible way possible.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

And looking back now, it's obvious it wasn't stopping anything. It was just shaping how it happened, adding that layer of tension, secrecy, and honestly making it more intense than it probably needed to be.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah, it didn't remove anything, it just redirected it and somehow turned two rule following teenagers. Can we really say that? Okay, we're gonna go ahead and say that. I'm gonna say this apart.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Rule following.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Okay, let me get this line out. And somehow it turned two rule following teenagers into full system navigators.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

In plain sight.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

It didn't remove anything, it just redirected it and somehow turned two rule following teenagers into full system navigators.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

In plain sight.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Door open.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Under a blanket.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Very overworked.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

That blanket put in the work.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

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